The Secret Life of Clutter with Helen Sanderson
Graham Allcott 0:06
My guest today is Helen Sanderson. Helen is a professional organiser and the creator of the home declutter kit. She's also the author of The Secret Life of clutter. And so in this episode, we talk about our relationship with our stuff, the parallels between decluttering and productivity, and why it's important to get clarity in everything we do. There's a real emotional depth to the book, I really love reading it. And I hope you're going to enjoy the episode just as much. This is Helen Sanderson. I always tell us and I said, How are you doing?
Helen Sanderson 1:22
I'm doing great. lovely to be here.
Graham Allcott 1:25
So welcome to be on busy. And we're going to talk about your book, The Secret Life of clutter. And what's nice, if you're watching this on YouTube, you'll see Helen has a beautiful space. Just behind you there, Helen, which is like obviously just not a surprise, just meeting you. But I really enjoyed the book, The Secret Life of clutter. And I wanted to start with something that you say, which is clutter is decisions that haven't been made. So my first question is, why are people not making those decisions?
Helen Sanderson 2:01
I think, because I I think we all have decision fatigue. I mean, do you remember when you used to go for a coffee and you just get a coffee and now it's you want a flat white or a cappuccino or an espresso or, you know, it's like, that's just one micro moment where you're, you know, bombarded with decisions. And and, you know, we have, we have busy full lives, we're also bombarded by social media, by marketing by choices. And, and I think that I think quite a lot of people run away to their home to try and get away from, you know, decision fatigue, but now it's on your computer.
Graham Allcott 2:44
And we were just talking before I press record about how obviously, the title of this podcast is beyond busy. Do you think there's a sort of straightforward parallel between people who are busy and clutter, so more of the people that you would see in your work, who have a lot of clutter with generally be quite busy people.
Helen Sanderson 3:04
I think a lot of people that I work with are cluttered, because they're busy. And they want a lot out of their life. And they're, you know, perhaps we're all getting a little bit hungry for more experiences, and in the home is becoming a sort of a lower priority. And so, you know, we want to go out and experience things or do online courses or go and, you know, run three businesses quite often or have a job and no business. And, you know, so the home is sort of kind of de prioritised. And quite often people are saying to me, Well, you know, I come home from work, and I just haven't got time, or I haven't got any energy I've given 150% to my business or to my work. Don't ask me or tell me to kind of go and do the dishes. And and it's just sort of, there's this kind of, perhaps a need that the home is supporting us. But actually, we need to support the home to support us. It's a kind of a mutual mutual thing.
Graham Allcott 4:10
Yeah. Which we'll come on to that. But I'm curious about that idea that if you're giving everything to work, then you're taking something away from the home. And that's specific to like a heart of, of work life balance, isn't it and how we think about that. And some of the stories in your book, there's a couple of people in the book, who it sounded like they wouldn't have had clutter in their work. They were very, you know, a type organised. And then when they got home there was it was like a completely different story. So why why do you think people are sort of not holding themselves to those same kind of standards around decision making, or why do people think in the same way in both both places?
Helen Sanderson 4:53
Well, I think I mean, there's a story of Natalie who she you know, had had to perform really well at work and, and actually shared home. But so all of the living shared spaces were organised and tidy. But her own room was was not. And it's, it's something about when we do something to get approval with other from other people, you know, we have different standards. So if I go to work, then I can please my boss, or if I have flatmates that I want to have a good impression with, but actually in my own room, it's a completely different story. And I think that's kind of what I'm trying to get at in the book is like, this is about your relationship with yourself. So when it comes to being in your room, then when when do you make yourself important enough to make that space really work for you. And it is about balance, it's totally about balance. Exactly what you're saying.
Graham Allcott 5:53
Yeah, it struck me a lot in the book, how, just how emotional it was, and how, you know, you start out thinking about where you sort of, start by thinking about, I was gonna say this stuff, you know, stuff that sort of, feels like it's these inanimate objects, but you, you talk about possessions, you had a really interesting take on possessions. God, just explain, there's like three meanings of possessions that you talked about?
Helen Sanderson 6:23
Well, that that possessions possess you is the is one of the fundamental thing, and that, you know, that we put meaning into possessions. And, you know, I think that something, one of the things that people think about, you know, well, you just just tidy up your home, or just let things go, or, you know, but but actually, we imbue possessions, with, with stories about our lives. And you know, if you can, if you work with somebody who's very, very attached to this stuff, they will tell you a story about every single thing. And you'll suddenly feel the weight of, of all of that, you know, that that and our possessions locate us in our history as well. So there's, there's a huge amount of owning a possession and a possession owning you.
Graham Allcott 7:17
And then the other one was like, stuff is possessed. Right. So there's like stories inside things. Like, there's a couple of really strong examples of the book where you're talking about people looking at photographs, and the shape of a room and where the bed was, and these things where it's like, it feels like there's there's a possession happening within those those things that's constantly kind of talking to you and, and constantly kind of telling you story back even down to like, you say, the book, like your tooth, your toothbrushes telling you to brush your teeth and stuff like that.
Helen Sanderson 7:53
Yeah, I mean, but I think people use that, don't they, they, you know, like, people, I mean, I my experience, people hold on to things and they, you know, I say that, that we have, under under a pile of clutter is is a is a dream or a vision or something that hasn't been realised. And, and the reason that, you know, when you clear that clear through clutter, you'll find the little memories, there'll be things that you've kept, there'll be little objects that you have left for yourself to relocate yourself to remember those things. So, I mean, I worked with one woman who and she had all these, you know, I don't know if you've ever drunk puca tea, but they have beautiful designs on their, on their packaging. And she just had a cupboard of empty t for t packets. And we, you know, we were exploring what is that? And she said, Oh, that's, that's my creativity. And, and it was just such, and that's a sort of a symbol of that reminder for her that to keep connected to her creativity. And I said, Well, let's, let's try and get it out of the cupboard. And, and give it a new life rather than you know, so. But you know, you can you can see that in that story about the photographs, that you can almost relive a memory through a photograph, it's almost like it will transport you back in time to that experience, which you know, is a really is a really beautiful thing, but also for some people quite traumatic as well. And we talked about the emotional aspect of it. That's another reason why some people they don't want to go through their house because they don't want to find things that remind them of bad things. So you know, it's very complicated and really fascinating, obviously, I'm fascinated by
Graham Allcott 9:41
Yeah, and I suppose so. You could. I'm kind of guessing there's also a sense that you don't want to be reminded of those things. If there's like a traumatic event or something has happened or whatever. But you I guess you also deep down you still know it's there. Right? So it's like you can't Like you can't fool yourself completely right?
Helen Sanderson 10:03
Well, I think I think I mean, one of the things that I think about clutter, because I talk about that, you know, your home has a story to tell you. And one of the most fascinating things is if you wake up in the morning, and you have a dream, and you know that your dream is trying to tell you something, and that hidden within your unconscious, there's this mechanism that is prompting you to heal or to deal with something or to get back in balance. Exactly, you know, maybe that is work life balance, maybe that is creative, work balance, maybe that is some sort of balance. So I do feel that, you know, even that, we kind of unconsciously leave these little reminders for us selves around the house in the same way that a dream is kind of prompting you to think about something.
Graham Allcott 10:52
So one of the things that happened, as I was reading your book, I started sort of mentally scanning through my own house and my garden office here. And, and I've just been on this book deadline. And that generally is the time for me where I just things just get you know, neglected and little bits of clutter build up on desks that usually a pretty clear and stuff like that. And you talk about in the book, some questions that people should ask around this stuff. And obviously there's there's like the Marie Kondo thing of does this spark joy? And you actually say, whilst that's a good question to ask, there's some, maybe some better or some deeper questions that we should be asking about our stuff. And I also think this is like really kind of linked to productivity as well, when I was reading it. So do you want to just explain the the questions that people should ask about their stuff?
Helen Sanderson 11:41
And so yeah, just before I dive into that, and just just to say that, you know, I think it's completely normal, that when you turn a book deadline, that you're that your life is gone into slippage, and, you know, I'm on also on a deadline, and that happens to me, and one of the things people really enjoy asking me is, are you tidy? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I'm really into life happens, and then we have to move with it. But in terms of the questions, um, I think, I think that I connected to what I was saying before, we locate stuff into objects, sometimes consciously, sometimes unconsciously. And, you know, when I do workshops with people, I get them to think about and to actually dialogue with objects and possessions. So I might get them to ask, why are you still here? You know, a bit like the, the tea packaging, you know, what is it that you need from me? You know, is it is there something that I'm not not thinking about? And what, what do you have to tell me, you know, so sometimes, like, I've done this with people who have full wardrobes, and they'll have, they'll have a dress in there that they never wear, and so they do a little, ask these questions with the dress, and it says, go out and have fun. You know, so it's, you can actually access quite an a deep psychological kind of relationship with yourself, if you have a little bit of a dialogue with those with those objects, and, and then how can I let you go, it will, you know, go out and have fun, or let some often an object or say, let somebody else use me, you know, let you know, I don't like living, I don't like living in the cupboard. It's dark, you know, I want to go out and party, you know, and, and something about have asking those questions, it creates a lightness, and it also creates another life beyond, you know, the dark wardrobe of, you know, where these things are living or that, you know, stuffed under, under the stairs. And so, you know, the, these objects start to come to life and, and have a new meaning. And, I mean, that may sound a bit bonkers, but I really do feel that, that, you know, in my experience, talking to people that some some sort of shift happens, and I think the essence of my work, and what I'm trying to say to people is that, you know, for some people, it is just stuff, you know, and that's, that's how it is, but for other people, it's a little bit more complicated. And, and we project meaning and value and, and stories into our objects and, and part of the way of letting that go and moving on is to start a bit of a dialogue, ask some of those questions. And, and that starts a shift of liberating so I always say to people start with why why is it that you can't let go of that object rather than, you know, does this spark joy or not, but why am I holding on to this so tightly? And the other the other thing that we talked about in the book is key pitch. You know, like often people say, Well, I've kept so long that I have to keep keeping it for another 20 years, you know, It's sort of, it's almost like it's an earned an investment in my home.
Graham Allcott 15:06
I love that word key pitch. And it also struck me that it's almost like a sort of emotional sunk cost, isn't it? So if you think about that, in productivity terms, I'm sure everybody has something on their to do list that they've been meaning to do for a while, it's not necessarily the top priority. But it sits on the to do list. And it's been looked at for so often that it's almost like it earns its place on the to do list. And I also think of the keep edge in terms of some of the stuff that I've got in my office, like, I've got a couple of old laptops in here and stuff that I'm not using anymore, but part of me thinks, oh, there's probably some stuff I need to retrieve from there. And I've, you know, I've moved, move them around or whatever, to the point where they've sort of earned their place a little bit. But really, I probably should, what should I do with that then do like, well, maybe that's the other thing is, clutter is decisions that you haven't made? And I just don't quite know, the best thing to do that. I don't want to just put them in the recycling. To send send them off somewhere, what do I do with my old laptops,
Helen Sanderson 16:11
I'm, I'm I guess, you wipe the stuff that you want to keep from it, or, you know, you upload that onto the, onto the cloud, and then you either sell them on or pass them on or recycle them or, you know, but I think that that's sort of one of the mundane decisions that we don't kind of want to make. And, I mean, the way I work with people is like, look, come on, let's, let's just take three days and intensively work on this, or, you know, three, I say three days, but you know, so give yourself as if you were going on a detox retreat, you know, you wouldn't expect yourself to be doing a juice fast and running a business, and bringing up your kids, you know, so sometimes it's good to just take some time to deal with the mundane. Because once you've dealt with those key pitch items, like those old computers, and I tell you, everyone has got an old laptop and a drawer full of wires, but they think they won't. And it just, I think I my philosophy is that you carry that in your mind. And every so often, you've got that little nagging in your head that says, you know, that old laptop, you should really deal with it. And that takes up bandwidth, that then means that you you're sort of clouding your capacity to be productive and to think clearly. So, you know, taking a couple of days to really sit down and say, Look, I'm just going to deal with those mundane things in my life, and get them out of my head, you know, people will say, Oh, the lofts I've got to do the loft, and it will be every day in their life, do the loft, do the loft, and you just think all of that energy and rhetoric that goes on and on in your head, that could actually, you know, be dealt with. And the other thing is that, you know, once people have dealt with the loft, and all the old computer, they're just like, it's like they've got tonnes of energy back, you would be so surprised by how much mental weight all of those decisions that haven't been made. Get, you know, carried,
Graham Allcott 18:16
for sure I tell I tell a story on when I'm doing productivity workshops. And I'm talking about the the importance of just getting the ideas out of your head and starting to see it in front of you that a few years ago, there was there's this plant in my hallway, and it was so like, you know, the roots were kind of beating out at the side of this pot, it just really needed reporting, it really needed much bigger pot. And for weeks and weeks, if not months and months, I was just walking past this plant every time I walked up and down the hallway, you know, several times a day. And just every time Oh, must do that must do that. And then one week, when I was just in the middle of doing my little weekly review process I wrote down, you know, go to the little shop around the corner, buy a new part. And I just wrote that down. About a week later, I was walking down that street. And I wasn't even checking with my lists or looking at it. But suddenly, I was just almost like on autopilot. I found myself in this shop buying this plant pot and taking it home. And it was just something really powerful about having written it down. I've made the decision in a really clear way. And then the rest of it would just look after itself, you know, and suddenly it's repotted and I'll tell you what the other the other side of that was just the energy that I got. Every time I then walked past the same plant in the same spot. But just it was in a different part. I just felt locked in it, you know, and it just it gave me a very different energy. So I think it's a really important thing, isn't it that that dialogue that we have with ourselves and then getting that out of the internal and onto something external, whether it's an apple paper or just, you know, making those decisions real by stop stopping it just being a conversation we're having with ourselves
Helen Sanderson 20:01
I mean, I could get really esoteric on you or you know, quantum physics or every everything has energy doesn't even those sort of harder matter things are vibrating. And, you know, maybe the plant is kind of saying to us screaming out, I need another pot. And you know, so it's, I think that we're multi dimensional beings, and that the vibrations of our spaces is having an impact on us, not just mentally, but physically, you know. So I love that story. And I think that's a really great example of what I'm talking about in terms of, you know, those decisions that you don't make a nagging at you? And is that is the kind of fundamental core thing that actually when I say that to people, they're like, Oh, my goodness, of course, you know, I just need to sit down and make a decision. And sometimes the decision is, where am I going to put this? Or when am I going to do this? Or where am I going to give this to, you know, and it's just a case of giving yourself the mental time and space to make those decisions?
Graham Allcott 21:09
Yeah, I want to come on to the practical bit in a minute, but just while we're on that slightly esoteric bit there, like, one of the things I really felt reading the book is that you almost have a dialogue with spaces, like you sort of often describe in the book, I walked into this corridor, and I could see that it felt tired, or I walked into this place, and it felt really, you know, vibrant, and chaotic or exciting. I, my sense is that, like, not everybody has that. And so is that a bit of a superpower that you have, and is have, you always had that just like, I just love to know more about that sense that you have to just feel a space and feel a message or, you know, an emotion from from a space like that.
Helen Sanderson 21:55
You know, I went to see my osteopath one time, and she just went, you know, like that straight onto this painful bit in my shoulder. And I went How the hell did you know it was exactly there. And she just laughed. And, and it was just sort of this kind of idea that, you know, when you work with a body or you work with a home, you do develop this kind of fine tuned, sort of capacity to really listen, and, you know, I don't know, when you do something all the time, I'm sure you're the same with productivity as soon as you can see the errors or where people are getting stuck. And, and, you know, I mean, my background is I went to art school and and I was creating installations, even in my 20s. So my fascination was how, how can I give someone an experience with a space. So it's really interesting, when I look back to that, and I just think actually, spaces have been my passion really, for for many years. And then at one point, I was designing quiet rooms and meditation spaces and environments where you as soon as you walk in the door, you feel like somebody's taken this load off of you, you know, where you can just go, ah, like that, and I feel that your home should be that space, you know, you walk through the front door, somebody takes your coat and you go, ah, but for a lot of people, it's the, you know, the place that they shut that shut out of the world, or they won't let anyone in. And they're, you know, it's a place they feel ashamed of or uptight in or stressed about. And, and actually, it's the place where you go to heal, and it's the place where you go to recharge or to rejuvenate or to refresh. And if it isn't a safe place that supporting you, then where are you getting that support, to go out and be in the big wide world. So I think of your home as like your secure base, or your you know, your flight deck, you know, where you run your world from? And and if your flight decks in a mess, would you get on a plane with somebody who was flying? You know? So, yeah, it has been something that I feel very attuned to. And actually, some of my clients, when they, when they come to me, they say, Oh, I really feel the space and my partner doesn't understand. And I said no, but I understand. You know, I understand and you can tell when somebody's got that sixth sense, in a way. And I also say to people, you know, some people are really brilliant with numbers. Some people are brilliant with words, and some people are brilliant with colours, and some you know, some people are brilliant with people, and I just I don't know if I'm brilliant, but I could read spaces. And I can really, I can as soon as I've got the person and the space, there's a story that starts to unfold.
Graham Allcott 24:47
Maybe just before we get on to a couple of those stories, your process that getting clear process so you you kind of equate the idea of what we do in the home with Gardening and what we do in the garden, so you've got weeding, and then planting and then maintenance. So for anyone listening to this, I suppose this is like the practical essence of what you can do around around clutter, right? So do you want to just explain those three steps, the weeding the planting and maintenance.
Helen Sanderson 25:17
So I mean, the reason I use the garden analogy is because we, you know, a lot of people will say, you know, I don't have a garden, it's too much work. But actually, we all have a home and a home is work. And for some reason, we don't realise that, you know, there's an even if you're really lucky, and you've got cleaners and other people that can do stuff, there's still stuff that only you can do, you know, only you can clean up throat. And so, the thing about gardening is that, you know, if you imagine an overgrown garden, you can't even see what you've got in there. You don't even know how big the garden is in it anymore. And so the first thing you've got to do is do the weeding, and you've got to cut back the weeds. So cut back all the brambles and then you've Once you've cleared out all the weeds, you can see the space. So the first thing is the decisions about what can go what's a weed? What, what don't I need any more. And then once you can see the space, you can then revision it you can say, Well, okay, I've, when I've done this weeding, I found this apple tree and actually want to keep that and I want to keep the rosebush That's lovely. But actually, what I'm going to do now is I'm going to put some decking and an a water feature, and I'm going to, you know, redesign this, and and then you've got your garden designers in and it's all been that's the planting plan. And then of course, you've got to maintain it, because if you don't, it's going to grow back to a big pile of brambles. And, and so, you know, people often say, Well, what happens if, you know, I, if I declutter, then quite often it goes back to how it was before. And that's really where the habits, you know, learning new habits, and learning new ways of supporting yourself being. I don't know thinking of it as, rather than a chore and judgement, drudgery. Thinking of it, perhaps as a mindfulness practice, or perhaps thinking of making the bed in the morning is a way that you that you take care of yourself. So it's a lot of it is about mindset and changing your mindset about, you know, I can I can maintain this space. And obviously, if you maintain your garden, and it doesn't take a huge amounts of do does it a little bit of watering a little bit of mowing the lawn, and then you've got this beautiful space that you can enjoy.
Graham Allcott 27:32
Yeah, for sure. And what so in that definition, one of the things that sort of struck me was like, when you're doing the, the weeding and the working out. So with the story of Natalie, you talk about Natalie having this, this draw, and it's called the don't know, draw. And that I found really interesting because I think, again, there's a really nice parallel with with productivity there is that sometimes where we're stuck and we're procrastinating is because we've, we've, we realised that there's a decision that we haven't made. And yet, what we haven't done is given ourselves the sort of grace period to say, what other information do I need to gather before I've made a decision? Or can I just put this off for three weeks and defer it till then or, you know, when I you know, when I sort of park this and come back to it in six months, or whatever, there's lots of different ways that we can move forward with something that don't involve having to know right now what to do. Do you want to just explain a bit about the don't know jaw because that felt like a really powerful thing with that story of Natalie's?
Helen Sanderson 28:38
Yeah. So in my home declutter kit, which I produced, you know, about five years ago, it's a set of cards that are a set of decisions that people are likely to make during their decluttering process. And there's two cards that I love very much. One of them is the the don't know card and the other one is the Gremlins card. Yeah. Yeah, so the Gremlins is, you know, please don't don't I can't go there. You know, it's a it's a rah, rah situation, it's a relationship or a trauma or something. Maybe you've just had a bereavement. So you put it in a knot in a box and wrap it up and put it aside and you give yourself I don't know, a year or six months or whatever to just leave it and then they don't know card is where you maybe you need to sleep on it. Or maybe you need to talk to someone about it or maybe you need to take it to your therapist or something. But it's it's a bit more current than the Gremlins, which are which been put away. And, and it's so important because if you're making you know, we talked at the beginning about decision fatigue and if you're making a lot of decisions about your possessions, you can't make all of those decisions perfectly and some of them are going to need to be thought about or reflected on or slept on or something And so I mean, particularly with Natalie, she was she struggled to make decisions. And she she, you know, I mean, I don't recommend a don't know, draw, but it worked for her. And and you know, everybody's different. And we had an agreement that it was, you know, you can have a don't know, draw for a week, but then you need to deal with the don't know, draw, you can't just have a don't know, draw forever. Because otherwise, it's a get out of jail card, isn't it?
Graham Allcott 30:30
Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes I use, so I have an old fashioned in tray. That's just on the shelf next to my desk. And I just chuck all the little bits in there, you know, the receipts that I need to photograph and all those little bits and pieces for, you know, sort of coming back to household bills, and all that sort of thing. I know, I'm going to file them later. But I just pile them all up there. And then generally about once a week, I'll just empty all of that back out. But it really helps me. And also, the other thing I'll do is I'll just a little paper note, let's just if I'm having ideas, I just find it quicker to just if I'm at my desk, and I have an idea just to write it down, chuck it in there, rather than to get my phone out and get the app out and all that. So I just find it an easier way of operating. But I suppose like, it's not necessarily I don't know, I don't know. But it's, it's like a conscious thing of I'm deferring this for now, I'm not going to let this interrupt what I'm doing. I'm just going to pile it up there and sort of come back to it later. The interesting about Gremlins, though, is that, I also think that if you have something that you're you're putting aside and saying I'm going to come back to this in a year's time, like so to me, that feels like that's a decision in itself, isn't it like this decision in itself to say, this is something I'm I know that I don't have the capacity to deal with for whatever reason. And I'm just going to leave that and come back to it another time. And it's sort of I don't know, it just it really reminds me of like some of the stuff around productivity with, you know, just just putting stuff on your calendar for six months ahead or a year ahead, rather than committing to it now, that can be really freeing, because what it does, is it it's a form of that weeding, isn't it where what you're doing is creating the space, to then really focus on the stuff that does need to be done now. And sort of putting those other things, you know, over to one side kind of thing?
Helen Sanderson 32:21
Absolutely, I mean, I would say that what you're doing with your receipts is exactly what I would recommend, you know that you that you just sort of pile them for a while and then get to it, but but do it on a regular basis. So the thing about Gremlins is that, you know, even if you're putting them aside for a year, you've made a decision to put it aside, and it's making that decision that empowers you. Because you've taken control. So quite often people say I don't know where to start, and it's almost like the house is like going or, you know, it's the house is kind of the in the staff has taken over. It's it's in control. And when you start taking back control and saying no, actually, this, I'm going to I'm gonna sleep on that, this I'm going to deal with next year. I mean, this is the same as in a business, you know, I've got an online course, I'm trying that I wanted to make for years. And you know, you have to realise your capacity, don't you and you have to say, well, actually, this is going to have to wait. And so that's my Gremlin for for a while it's over there. And it's about being realistic with yourself. But when you do that, and you say, That's Project 2023, or, you know, December 2022, that's empowering. Whereas having the, the online course going in like mag bag, then you just feel a sense of defeat. And, and I think one of the things that I really encourage people to do is, is to feel a sense of success that, you know, even if you're just keeping one area of your house maintained, you're winning, you know, so doo doo doo. And I think you probably would say the same in terms of productivity, do things that you feel you're good at, get, you know, build your sense of self esteem. And then you get more courageous about doing the next the next bit.
Graham Allcott 34:13
And I'd say some of those decisions are also about self kindness, aren't they, it's, it's, you know, you're either saying, Hey, this is something that I'm not gonna have capacity to let me recognise that and own that. And then part of that might also be, hey, this is a thing that I need in in some way or another to get support from someone else around or get training around or approach in a different way later with, you know, with more information or more skill. So I just think there's a kindness to that then rather than set yourself expectations that are too big, so that yeah, that just felt like a really important fit. And there's also a bit in that chapter that said, once you have more physical space, you have more emotional and more mental space, which Yeah, I just feel sad. is a real theme in your work isn't it it's about is kind of creating space and letting stuff, you know, putting stuff away to create space that has more energy around it and is and can have more momentum around it.
Helen Sanderson 35:13
Yeah, and making space for the new, you know, so many actually, when I was thinking, looking at all the people that I wrote about, you know, they've all moved on, you know, some have had children, some have moved countries, you know, some have met the love of their life, you know, so actually, when you make when you make space, you actually make space for something new to come in. But when you fill your space, you kind of there's a specificity or a stuckness. But that sort of stops the flow of life. So, you know, creating space and making space for the new and, and your creative life is something that I'm really, really passionate about.
Graham Allcott 35:54
Yeah, you also talk in the book about this, like a bit of a myth that goes on. And so you come from an arts background as well, about the creative people are the ones who live in clutter, and they kind of need the clutter to be able to operate. And you kind of do away with that a bit in the book. Do you want to talk about that? So and also, I'm really curious. So when you were at art school and doing installations, was your house really cluttered to?
Helen Sanderson 36:22
The inevitable question? My desk is a mess at the moment, because I've got lots of projects on, but my house is generally okay. And I had, I worked in a bookshop once and I had a boss who said, she said, You're the greatest combination of creative, and an order that I've ever, you know, that I've ever known. And maybe I'm lucky like that, or, you know, maybe my mom just trained me well. But, you know, I think that we do, you know, a lot of people when I, when I do start with a why. And we do do a little bit of a deep dive into, you know, their history, some people never learned some stuff. So you can be creative and chaotic, but maybe you never really learned what order and structure is. And, and you can learn that it's never necessarily going to be your strength. But you know, we all have to, you know, I'm not brilliant with numbers, but I've had to learn to be, you know, on top of it, it's it, but it's not the domain that I that I live in. So I don't know. I mean, I think it's really easy to do to make generalisations I knew somebody wants, who is an amazing creative artist, and she had one room that was a complete How can I describe it a complete mess, you know, oil paints everywhere. And then when you shut the door, the rest of the flat was meticulous. And I just thought what an amazing woman that she's kind of found this perfect balance between allowing her our inner artist to completely go to town in her studio. And, and then the other part of herself, and I often talk about our different parts and how they we meet their needs, and how the other part of herself, you know, met her need for order and, and simplicity. So I do think that it is something that we that we kind of we all have to struggle with that you know, whether you're giving 150% to your work, and then not giving yourself anything, then, you know, that's something that that needs to kind of come back into balance. I think balance is something that I'm really passionate about.
Graham Allcott 38:40
Yeah, for sure. And it Well, I mean, I just asked you about your house there. So why don't I ask you about mine. So it just was we were coming onto the call. I said I kind of got a bit. I had that thing where I'm sure you get all the time. That's like talking to the person who talks about clutter. Like, maybe maybe I'm cluttered. So I asked you do you think my books look a bit cluttered? And you said, well, they don't but they also tell a story. And so I guess there's two parts of that is like, Do you have a sense of are there some really common themes to those stories that people tell? And then also like, yeah, what what story? Does it tell just I'm curious, knowing that you're so attuned to spaces and whatever, like what what story does it tell when you look at my books and background behind?
Helen Sanderson 39:30
Well, I think the story that it tells is, is you know, partly that you that you're interested in knowledge. So you're you're an intellectual, you're, you know, you're you're, you're bright, you read you stimulate your mind, so your mind is in your head space is important to you. And it's also part of your identity. Yeah, so it's something you know, and you're a writer and you write brilliant books and so therefore you know it to have have that background? You know, it sort of does make sense.
Graham Allcott 40:04
Are there were are there some, some, I just wonder if there were like, almost like archetypes to this stuff, like, Are there sort of common common stories that you either see people telling or that are naturally told, unconsciously,
Helen Sanderson 40:18
I think that I'm, you know, I'm very interested in personality types. And I think that we express ourselves in our homes, and we express some of our identity in our home. So, you know, an intellectual will have a lot of books, and you know, and they'll be, there'll be kind of almost status symbol symbols, you know, like, This is who I am, these are an expression of me. And, you know, we know that we dress up, wearing our clothes to express ourselves, but we also do that in our home as well, you know, so if you're a vibrant, colourful person, you're gonna want to express your vibrancy in your home. So you can immediately tell, you know, about a personality, you know, some people are much more functional orientated, and then they're not interested in aesthetics and beauty, they're just interested in functionality, does this work? Can I get from A to B, and, and that will show in their home as well. So, you know, our homes do tell a story of our personality and our values. And, you know, and when we have an inner conflict about that, and that something about that isn't working, or perhaps we're living outside of our value system, or we haven't quite got in alignment with that yet, that will probably that conflict will be expressed in the house, too. So I think earlier on, we were talking about, you know, keep edge. And I was thinking actually, what, what popped into my mind, and I didn't say it at the time was, you know, if you've invested a lot in, in a training or in a business, and it's not working, there is this part of you that wants to keep going, and to keep holding on to it, it's really, really hard to let go of something that you've invested a lot of money in a lot of time in, you know, all you've kept it for a long time. But actually, you know, I mean, most spiritual philosophies are about, you know, let go and detach, you know, we don't need all of this stuff. And, you know, ultimately, the things that are important to us are in our hearts, they're not necessarily in our objects.
Graham Allcott 42:29
My mum always has a go at me, because I deliberately don't have house insurance. And the reason I don't have house insurance is exactly that. So I like to go through life, knowing that all of these possessions are temporary, and they could all just get stolen in the night, and then that would be okay. And she's always, but what would you do about this? I'm like, well, there's nothing in here, Mom, that's that expensive to replace. So by saving all the money from not paying house insurance for 20 years, like if I ever need to do that, that money's going to be there. So I that's always been my, my sort of, you know, little way of just reminding myself all the time. I mean, obviously, we've got buildings insurance in case the roof caves in because I think that's probably that's probably important. But yeah, just in terms of like, the possessions and stuff I I'd much rather live in a way where I'm not coveting stuff. And I'm not like, you know, to attach to things and, and, you know, ultimately, I feel like I can let go of it a bit more easily that way.
Helen Sanderson 43:35
Because then we go back to the possessions possessing you don't we? Yeah, and actually, you know, you can't take any of this stuff with you. But you just you can take experiences with you. And a lot of my clients now, you know, they say I don't want gifts, just give me experiences, gift me experience, because that is something you know, that you can that you can hold on to. And you can remember you don't necessarily need, you know, more stuff. But that's a whole nother
Graham Allcott 44:02
session. Yeah. And we got a couple of minutes left. And I wanted to talk about procrastination because it does feel like that is, you know, really at the heart of where clutter comes from it comes back to that thing that clutter is decisions that haven't been made. Another little line that you say in the book, which I really love is clutter berries trauma, which has like, oh, that's, that's, that's so deep and so true. But you talked about the procrastination equation in your book and reading that book. So do you want to just talk just about procrastination, your take on it? And you know, maybe also just how that relates to work as well as to clutter, right? Like what can people best do about things they're procrastinating on?
Helen Sanderson 44:46
Well, I spoke to someone the other day and she said, Oh, you know, I am running a business and you know, dadadada da and I said, anyway, we uncovered that basically a lot of procrastination. A lot of her procrastinate. question was about her perfectionism. So, you know, quite often I think, when we want to do something really, really well, it kind of freezes us. And I mean, in business, there's the, you know, you know, this minimal viable product, you know, just make it and get it out there. But actually, when you're a perfectionist, and you want to do it perfectly and actually do you know what a lot of people with cluttered homes are perfectionist, and you wouldn't believe it, but they are. And, and they want to do it really well. And because they can't see how to do it and do it really well, they they get into this freeze mode, and it's the freeze that then feeds procrastination. And, and it becomes a self perpetuating cycle. So, you know, perfectionism is a real killer. It just does really. I mean, I suffer from it really badly, as well. So you know, and I really had to overcome a lot of procrastination.
Graham Allcott 46:00
So you suffer from just perfectionism getting in the way of things that you want to do?
Helen Sanderson 46:07
Yeah, I've got really, I've got really high standards. I mean, my, you know, I was writing this book for years. And, you know, I think I've read, read about other other people. And, you know, they say, some brilliant movies have been books have been written and some brilliant movie scripts. And, and actually, a lot of movies that get put out and not perfect. You know, we don't know that when we watching it, because they, because we see it, but actually, there's a level of non perfection that you need to be able to, otherwise you'll never finish anything. And just to come back to that point, that actually, you know, I talked to people about the this, it's so essential that you complete things. You know, because quite often people will go around, and they'll give up just before they're about to complete something. And it's when you complete something that you get that sense of achievement, or that sense of I don't know what what's it like, if you've got six books on the go, and you haven't finished any of them, you know, it scatters you, you know, so just finish what finished two of them and then move on to the next one. But in order if you've got lots of knitting projects on the go finish something. And so a lot of people will find that it's, you know, that feeds into the procrastination cycle is not completing things.
Graham Allcott 47:25
Yeah, there's two things that come to mind with that. But I try and live by and I think it's just really useful around procrastination and, and sort of, you know, putting stuff out into the world. One is, I think it's Leonard Cohen who said, great, great art is never finished, only abandoned. So really, and then. And then there's like the Steve Jobs thing, he used to say, real artists ship. So the idea is like, you've got to put the thing in the box, and you've got to deliver it out to somebody else. But also, my editor once told me when I was working on productivity ninja, I was really concerned about spelling mistakes being missed. And all this. And my editor said to me, do you know there's still spelling mistakes in some of Shakespeare's books? So for all that time publishers have been trying to correct it and wherever and there's still some there. And so it's like, oh, well, if it's good enough for the bar, it's probably good enough. Humble our productivity ninja, but it just kind of gives you this sense of, of being able to, you know, slightly toned down that perfectionism and just say, actually, what's more important is that you ship it, you put it out into the world, and from there, good stuff will happen. I've said the same thing with my book recently, where this new book that I'm working on, kind and I've had focus groups of people talking about it. And it's that moment, isn't it, where it goes from being a thing that's just in your head to it being a thing that now everybody else is experiencing it, and they have some ownership over it and a little bit of agency about it. They're giving you feedback, too, right? So something about again, suppose this kind of brings us full circle, really, but it shows you that there's always energy around our stuff, isn't it? So whether it's whether it's work, whether it's clutter, there's always some energy and some momentum to either be gained or lost, depending on how we relate to it. And maybe that's a good sort of place to round it off. So the book is eminently out. I think, by the time this comes out, it will be out. And it's called The Secret Life of clutter. And I really enjoyed it. And yeah, just as I said, during the conversation, surprisingly, a just a surprisingly emotional book to read. But do you want to just tell everyone where they can connect with you and also like can people can can still people still get the home declutter kit? Is that still available? So yeah, that feels like a good place for people to start. as well just tell people where they can find out more.
Helen Sanderson 50:02
So you can get the home declutter kit on amazon.com, or Helen sanderson.com. And the secret life of clutter is out and available now for pre order. And it's out on the 12th of May. And I just want to say that one of the reasons why I wrote the book was because there's a lot of shame that people feel around being cluttered. And you've been talking about your book about kind. And if I get anything from writing this book, I really hope that people will be kind to some of the people who shared their stories, but also other people who are struggling with, you know, living in a cluttered home, because I think ultimately, my main aim is to bring compassion and kindness. So the secret life of clutter is out. And you know, please enjoy it. And please share it.
Graham Allcott 50:57
Thanks. So that was a lovely note to finish on. Thanks so much for being on Beyond Busy. Thank you.
So there you go. Helen Sanderson. And what I didn't say during the episode is my next door neighbour for a couple of years, was a hoarder, she has now moved out and the house is empty, because it was in a really bad state. So it's just being is waiting to be done up, basically. But the lady who used to live there, she was a really lovely lady. But she was getting quite old and struggling to look after such a big house. And she was, you know, a genuine hoarder, like, I'd see her next to the park near us. And she'd be sort of fishing things out of the recycling bins and bringing it home and all that sort of thing. And it was some it's really hard to watch, but also really interesting, because it's like, what can I do? What can I say? Like, just trying to even understand the mentality of that is, it's just feels like such a fascinating thing. Like, it's such a fascinating thing. The places that the human mind can take us, isn't it? And then, yeah, I was always just full of curiosity, whenever I talked to her, which wasn't very often actually she was she was pretty reclusive. But yeah, just I just think it's a really fascinating thing, isn't it? And that's obviously the extreme end. But we all have an emotional connection with stuff, right. And we all have things that are blocking us from clarity. So yeah, really interesting. I mean, the book is just full of that sort of emotional layer all the way through. So really worth read. And yeah, I just found it a really interesting, thoughtful conversation. Just hope you enjoyed that episode, brought to us as always, by Think Productive .com. I'll put the link in the show notes. If you have a team, if you work in an organisation that wants help with productivity wants help with collaboration and leading remote teams, and a range of other stuff, then go to think productive.com and find out more. That's my company. And the idea is, the podcast is free. And if you can help by spreading the word about the work of Think Productive or bringing Think Productive into your team, that would go a long way to help pay for the podcast and the labour of love that goes into this. So that's my little invitation to you to go and check out thinkproductive.com. And the only other thing I want to say is just a quick life update, really, as I'm just doing the third draft edits for my book KIND, shout out to anyone listening to this, who was part of the focus groups, which was as as always, when I write a book, just a hugely helpful process. And I came away having focus groups, the book with just so many insights, a lot more clarity, and yeah, a lot left to do. So I'm just working on the last details of this book. And I will keep you posted when it's ready for pre order, obviously, probably towards the end of 2022. But if you want to kind of keep in touch with me and find out more than just go to graham allcott.com forward slash links, and there you can sign up for my weekly email and I'll keep you posted there. And you'll just find out everything else that I'm doing at Graham allcott.com forward slash links, so go check that out. That is it for this week. We'll be back in two weeks time with another episode so until then, take care and bye for now.
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